[Event] Gentleman's league (reanimated)

Heya, guys
Remember the gentleman's league idea we had, that crushed so horribly?
OK, no i have an idea that may help us complete the league, perhaps.
The idea was to divide the players into 3-4 groups, but we didn't know how.
here's what i propose: we divide players by weapon type, as such:
option 1:
3 referees (6 cages)
group1-one-handed 12 players
group2-two-handed 13 players
group3-pole-arms 12 players

option 2:
4 referees (8 cages)
group1-one-handed 9 players
group2-two-handed 9 players
group3-pole-arms 9 players
group4-gladiators (any weapon) 9 players

both options will take less than 2 hours of play and everybody will fight everybody (in the same category)
after this we can make another identical event, where players will take a different group (if they choose)
So, what do you think?

I don't really like the idea. Vast majority of players will pick the two handed category so unless people are forced into the other groups they won't work out properly.

I'm taking part in a US duel tournament at the moment: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=143020.0

brackets:

It's just double elimination but the nice thing is people are just given a time period in which they have to complete the duels for the round. Each round is like 5 days in which each pairing organizes a time they're both free and they do best of 13 (first to 7). Seems to be working out quite nicely and it avoids the whole problem where someone who wants to compete can't make the one time it's happening. Plus it gives a decently long period for people to discuss the duels and pick favourites in matchups and stuff, kind of fun.

Just putting that on the table

BD_Baby_Wolf wrote:Heya, guys
Remember the gentleman's league idea we had, that crushed so horribly?
OK, no i have an idea that may help us complete the league, perhaps.
The idea was to divide the players into 3-4 groups, but we didn't know how.
here's what i propose: we divide players by weapon type, as such:
option 1:
3 referees (6 cages)
group1-one-handed 12 players
group2-two-handed 13 players
group3-pole-arms 12 players

option 2:
4 referees (8 cages)
group1-one-handed 9 players
group2-two-handed 9 players
group3-pole-arms 9 players
group4-gladiators (any weapon) 9 players

both options will take less than 2 hours of play and everybody will fight everybody (in the same category)
after this we can make another identical event, where players will take a different group (if they choose)
So, what do you think?

I like the idea, as the Event Admin, I support you fully, I may even make a decent tournament map

So it's like those guys in a group propose duels to eachother and the one with the most kills wins and gets to continue in the tournament... or what? Or are you talking deathmatch? "everybody will fight everybody" can mean a lot of things.

Oh, and this means you will be forced to fight with the same type of weapon throughout the tournament, right?

It's nice to hear that there's still interest for this. Are you talking about finishing the old league or setting up a new one? I've had some thughts about this as well.

The model suggested would mean that you'd have to force some people to use 1-handers and polearms. It also doesn't solve the problem of getting a lot of people to the same place at the same time, and wait in line for duels. That north american duel tourney model M mentioned seems interesting. Duelers decide themselves when to fight, at a given timeframe. If they are unable to set up the match the one (or both) that hasn't been active in making it happen would get dropped off from the tourney. We could have a list of referees who could be contacted in a forum thread to get one for each mach. After a duel (which in this case could easily be best to 5, 7 or 10 for example) ref would post the screenshot of the final result to the tourney topic.

Even if it's possible to gather 40 people to a duel server at a given time, it would just mean a lot of waiting and those with older comps might just suffer unnecessary lag. Also, it might be particularly bad time for some player. The thing is, that none of this is really needed, as in duels you only need the two participants and preferably a ref.

As for the structure itself, I'd suggest either double elimination or small starting groups (~4-6 players) from which the first one of each group goes straight forward and second fights against other groups seconds for the place in the playoffs. Of course the final structure could be decided only after knowing the player numbers.

So we are back at the starting point of not knowing how to sort out the players in the beginning? Well, there are two options. The dictator model (organizer decides, this is how I believe it was done in NA tourney?) or we could use the first tourney data (which I agree, is not really fair as those groups were random, but maybe more fair than the other options). Maybe combining this with the starting groups structure we could reduce the dice rolls to a minimum in this matter, and get the most interesting final fights.

If an organizator is needed for the event, I'm willing to do it.

Okay I agree with Minutus and vote for the Dictator model,
I'll make a post in Admins area for it to be accepted by all ADmins

actually i proposed the "fight in your own time" system from the start, but it was rejected due to lack of active admins.
As the rating system i propose the one we used in chess tournaments.
so everyone duels everyone in the same group and in the end we'll have 1st place in 1h, 1st place in 2h and so on. (just like we did on the event except people will be divided into groups) this was considered as the most fair system at that time. the KO system isn't nearly that fair.
In the coming events the players will decide weather the want to follow their choice of weapon or switch to another group to try their skill in another weapon type. very simple.

Snake wrote:Okay I agree with Minutus and vote for the Dictator model,
I'll make a post in Admins area for it to be accepted by all ADmins

I removed this post because it had no content. I can make a sketch of a tourney for such discussion (with structure, timetable and rules). Before that there's no need for such polls.

Yes, but just "fight in your own time" isn't enough, there must be a strict timeframe included, otherwise the tourney will die. I think we have enough active admins to get the referees, and if we don't, we might try the NA model of trusting the gentlemen I have some good faith on the dueller community.

This groups by weapon type i still don't quite understand. Are you suggesting making 3 different tourneys, one for 1h, one for 2h and one for polearms. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense, and I think if we can make one tourney/league happen that will already require enough work. The KO system isn't fair true, at least not if the participants are put into it randomly. This is why I suggested we could use the first league day results as guidelines, or a balanced model of both that and discussions between organisators. I'm afraid a complex rating system would just take too much time to show up any decent results, plus it takes a lot of work. Then, by using starting groups we could make the randomness factor matter even less.

You don't really need referees for the fighting in your own time thing, at least there aren't any in the US tourney and there hasn't been any problems. Getting a third person to come along only complicates it I think. When we're contacting the other competitors we send the PMs with bcc to the tourney organizer so that if by the round deadline a match hasn't happened he knows who was making the effort to organize it. It's also to settle disputes about what server and combat speed the duels will be on but obviously that's not an issue here. Some of the anticipated matchups that had the times set up with decent notice had the time posted in the thread for people to come spectate.

"Are you suggesting making 3 different tourneys, one for 1h, one for 2h and one for polearms"
Yes

How about a group rotation system, so everyone has to fight with a weapon from each class? Then the highest ranked receives the most points and it's summed in the end to find the winner. (or the finalists - more exciting with an actual final duel for the title).

M: Sending copies of the msg's to the organizer sounds like a neat way to handle it. The only worry that comes into my mind is if there are no admins around it might be difficult to have the necessary "space" for the duels Also, using a duel area which limits backpeddling away half the map is a nice thing to have. It might work out well enough without admins too though. Btw. how are the weapons decided in the NA tournament? Is there something to prevent "well if you choose that then I will change" "wait, then I will change".. Edit: Good luck on round 4 M!

To kekn's suggestion: If everyone has to fight against everyone in 3 weapon classes, it means 3x fights to the league setup, and if fights are separated to such group rotation, it would mean that everyone would have to meet up with everyone 3 times. That's just way too many event days / fight times decided by duelists. If on the other hand you meant that participants would fight against each other only once, but 1/3 of the fights would be with each of the weapon classes (randomly because the groups would be somewhat random), then well, it would - I think - bring unnecessary randomness into the fights.

If the duels are done in "fight in your own time" way, it would be possible to have 1h, 2h and polearms all together in a single duel. For example best of 7 for each, and a winner of at least 2 weapon types would be the winner of a match. It might be interesting It would be a combination of these ideas, but I'm not sure which model is the most preferred by duellers.

In general I think that the kind of league where lots of people have to fight each and every one is just too time consuming and people will loose interest in it in the long run. There definitely should come a phase of playoffs where the bets are higher. It simply ends the tourney reasonably fast (and it's definitely more epic). I think that small starting groups and then quickly proceeding to playoffs would be the best balanced option. And I'd also go for a single tourney instead of three, to keep things as simple as possible. That tourney could however include the three weapon classes mentioned.

It would be very cool if the best dueller had to be proficient in all weapon classes (or utterly superb in one might do it). Brings another aspect to the game.

But I have to agree with the "one evening"-statement... we have already seen the consequenses of stretching this too far. But this also means that an early elimination will have to take place, if we want a large number of participants. Also, not to exclude good duellers because all places are taken.

The elimination can't be as structured and organized as the individual duels, that would be an admin nightmare! Can we agree so far?

The "fight on your own time" could be good here, at least for the first eliminations, but several problems arise. First of all, people in different timezones can attend these, but we can't schedule an evening event as easily, because "evening" isn't fixed. Then everything would have to be organized this way... and from the sound of it, this isn't what we want. The other thing is the fact that we again would stretch this to a week of preliminary duels.

Minutus, the small groups I think is a great way to do it. 4 people in each group would be 6 duels in all. No weapon switching, you use the weapon you sign up with! With best out of 7 fights, this whole process would take approximately 30 minutes (my guess on 42 fights, waiting time included). With 40 starting duellers we are now already down to 10.

I would much much rather like this setup. The tournament for each weapon class would be awesome, however too complex... minutus is right, having to fight with them all is also a silly idea

The small groups limits the number of participants to a divider of 4, unless we say that the rest makes up a group for themselves and if only 1 is the rest, he automatically gets a wildcard for the next round of the tournament.

@about the ring sort of thing, I think it's been talked through plenty of times already, but for the love of god, make it round. Being cornered, unable to move, is the best reason to just ragequit...

Minutus wrote:how are the weapons decided in the NA tournament? Is there something to prevent "well if you choose that then I will change" "wait, then I will change".. Edit: Good luck on round 4 M!

Nah you just choose what you want, they even let you use a shield. The US duel community's pretty obsessed with only using free armour though so there's not much point using anything but cutting weapons. The only time I've tried to counter with weapon choice is when the opponent bottles it and gets out a huscarl shield, and I've asked a spectator for his great long axe. In other people's duels I've only seen them stick to their initial choice so far. And thanks 8^)

Yeah, good luck M.

imo, you're probably gonna end up fighting Balion Mr. X next, who was pretty good when he was fighting on Nditions with 90 ping, chambers aplenty.

Sir_Alexander wrote:Yeah, good luck M.

imo, you're probably gonna end up fighting Balion Mr. X next, who was pretty good when he was fighting on Nditions with 90 ping, chambers aplenty.

Thanks. I'm not really worried about mr X but more for my current round against nickdean, because the likelihood is I'll be forced to play on fastest combat speed with my 100 ping

Anyway enough about that, super offtopic. 8D